Tables or Frames?

[IThurts]

Hi again,

I am slowly learning HTML- i know i am at my very first steps, but finding it quite managable, just need to go over things a couple times to make em stick!
I have made 1separate page that consits of frames stated below. And basically links that when clicked the said (seperate) page is targeted/opens at/in the main frame.. basically 2 columns one @ 10% screen size for the links and the other at 90%.
So basically all my links are targeted to open in the "main page", the only prob with this is that the <title> does not change when the page changes...if you follow?

I then read that tables are most commonly used for webpages. Why is that? More managable with images etc?

So should i be using tables instead of frames for my webpage layout is my question basically.

Also- sorry if this thread is in the wrong place, couldnt figure whre else to put it!!

[delorean]

Use neither. Nowadays most websites ditch tables, using a combination of divs and css. CSS is one of the key things to get to grips with for pin-point page design. Frames were made extinct about 8 years ago or more now and in my view only the close relative that is the iframe is still relevant today, and even then only in minor doses.

Tables can still be used, obviously for tabular data etc. As a go-to solely for page layout I would try to avoid it if you can and go via the route of divs/css. It's a little trickier but is certainly the way to go with today's website design.

[tripwire45]

You should only use tables for tabular information and frames make me crazy. As has already been suggested, learn CSS and use it for all your styling needs. I know it's easier said than done, but it'll ultimately make your life a lot easier. Get a couple of good books on CSS and HTML and learn how to create sites using them together.

[Alex Wright]

I agree with the said comments, but if you are going to choose between the two then I'd advise you use tables as the content in frames isn't picked up by search engines such as Google, Yahoo and AltaVista.

[Fergal1982]

see, I disagree slightly. perhaps im old school, but frames give a decent advantage. If you have a section of the page which loads every single time (such as the nav menu), it reduces load times by only loading it once for the site.

Maybe its not so necessary these days, what with Broadband, etc, but I always like to reduce load times on anything i program.

[Alex Wright]

Originally Posted by Fergal1982

see, I disagree slightly. perhaps im old school, but frames give a decent advantage. If you have a section of the page which loads every single time (such as the nav menu), it reduces load times by only loading it once for the site.

Maybe its not so necessary these days, what with Broadband, etc, but I always like to reduce load times on anything i program.

Indeed - but what's the point in having a page that loads quickly if it isn't found by the aforementioned search engines?

[Fergal1982]

Framed pages can still be found by search engines. Spiders dont just follow a trail of links, they root around in the directories too. Hence why, if you dont want a particular area of your site listed, you can use files targeted at the spiders to tell them which areas not to search.

If you are clever about it too, you can even have the framed load when a direct link to the page is used.

This is a good start

[ThomasMc]

Another no vote for frames, Link

[Alex Wright]

Originally Posted by Fergal1982

Framed pages can still be found by search engines.

Really? The developers at my work told me otherwise, only the other day?

[Bluerinse]

Originally Posted by Alex Wright

Really? The developers at my work told me otherwise, only the other day?

Google supports frames to the extent that it can. Frames can cause problems for search engines because they don't correspond to the conceptual model of the web. In this model, one page displays only one URL. Pages that use frames display several URLs (one for each frame) within a single page. If Google determines that a user's query matches the page as a whole, it will return the entire frame set. However, if the user's query matches an individual frame within the larger frame set, Google returns only the relevant frame. In this case, the entire frame set of the page will not appear.

If you're concerned with how your site appears in the Google search results, please read "Search Engines and Frames" at http://www.searchenginewatch.com/webmasters/frames.html.

This document describes the use of the "NoFrames" tag to provide alternate content. If you use wording such as "This site requires the use of frames," or "Upgrade your browser," instead of providing alternate content on your site, then you'll exclude both search engines and individuals who've disabled frames on their browsers. For example, audio web browsers, such as those used in automobiles and by the visually impaired, typically do not support frames. You can read more about the "NoFrames" tag in the HTML standard at http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/pres...es.html#h-16.4.

Source..

http://www.google.com/support/webmas...s&topic=&type=

[Fergal1982]

Both the link I provided, and Bluerinse's link from google confirm the case. They dont necessarily like frames, and its true that some engines arent capable of dealing with frames, but they can still be dealt with.

It may just be one of those things thats passed into legend in a company. A policy among the developers was made to not do it because it could cause some problems, and over time that has evolved in the minds of the developers that its not done because the cant deal with frames.

[Mitzs]

IThurts here is the link I am using right now for CSS. I like it alot and how they explain it, maybe it will help you to. I belive they have html on there too have not looked for it yet though.

http://www.westciv.com/style_master/...ial/index.html

[BosonMichael]

Meh, I don't like frames much. Makes it difficult to see what page you're on if the address doesn't change in the address bar... royal pain in the butt, sometimes.

[IThurts]

Ok thanks for the replies.
Two questions i would like clarification on if you would please:

1)Would i be right in saying that in order to create different "sections" of a webpage using CSS, ie; its links section on the left and the main content in the middle, i would have to use <DIV> tags (blocked elements) in order to seperate the two.

2)The last time i did websites/webpages, tables were used for this, so CSS is very new to me. I would use the tables to seperate the different sections of a page. As i understand it from this thread and other sources, CSS are used to create a page layout and its various sections, which pose great advantages. ie; the ability to use external style sheets to edit your style and apply/link this .css page to your html pages to change the layout in its entirety.

Thanks alot for the help in advance and please keep the answers in "dummy" terms please

[IThurts]

I know ya'll are very busy but....bump