If you have an IT degree, why take certs?

[Mathematix]

Hi all

I've been floating around these forums for quite a while trying to get my head around why people take certs, their value both inside and outside of IT and their value next to traditional education. I have no interest in doing them, nor do I need them as I'm already working in an industry that I was aiming for in the job that I wanted, but I do have several actual friends with them who tell me they are lacking. I know that loads of people are going to bite me for this, but here are my findings anyway:

1. Certs have no value outside of the IT industry.
2. Certs are perceived as a quick way to getting into the IT industry.
3. Certs do not provide a well-rounded education for IT or any other aspect of computing.
4. A string of IT certs could actually cost more than going for a traditional degree.
5. With degrees you have a recognised qualification for life, whereas certs need 'upgrading'.
6. Test centers charge thousands for what could be got for a couple-hundred quid!
7. Certs allow people not suited to any form of work in the IT industry to get work. I particularly take note of this thread regarding kobem's suitability for the industry. Although I agree, there are many others here that I would put in Kobem's group.

As the title suggests, I've also noticed that people who are either about to graduate, or have actually graduated with a computing degree of some form still feel the need to take a string of certs. What is the reasoning behind this? Why do people thing that their degrees are lacking to the extent that certs are required to 'fill-in the gaps'?

These are genuine questions, so please don't take it as me having a dig. I know how the concensus here is to group together when feeling threatened. ;)

[greenbrucelee]

Originally Posted by Mathematix

Hi all

I've been floating around these forums for quite a while trying to get my head around why people take certs, their value both inside and outside of IT and their value next to traditional education. I have no interest in doing them, nor do I need them as I'm already working in an industry that I was aiming for in the job that I wanted, but I do have several actual friends with them who tell me they are lacking. I know that loads of people are going to bite me for this, but here are my findings anyway:

Originally Posted by Mathematix

1. Certs have no value outside of the IT industry.

True

Originally Posted by Mathematix

2. Certs are perceived as a quick way to getting into the IT industry.

Also true, I learned not to take anything as a sure fire way into IT, I was told I would get a decent job in IT after I left uni but found out this was un-true.

Originally Posted by Mathematix

3. Certs do not provide a well-rounded education for IT or any other aspect of computing.

I think certs do provide a well rounded education for IT, I can only speak of the A+ but it is geared towards what you need to know as an entry level tech and that is what the A+ is for.

Originally Posted by Mathematix

4. A string of IT certs could actually cost more than going for a traditional degree.

Yes a cert could cost £1500 or more but a traditional degree usually means living away from your area and living in a crappy flat which costs a lot, most students end up with 10k or more debts so I think certs even if you have A+, N+, MCDST, MCSA, MCSE wouldn't cost you anywhere near the uni cost.

Originally Posted by Mathematix

5. With degrees you have a recognised qualification for life, whereas certs need 'upgrading'.

Not all certs need upgrading.

Originally Posted by Mathematix

6. Test centers charge thousands for what could be got for a couple-hundred quid!

Thats why I recommend self study.

Originally Posted by Mathematix

7. Certs allow people not suited to any form of work in the IT industry to get work. I particularly take note of this thread regarding kobem's suitability for the industry. Although I agree, there are many others here that I would put in Kobem's group.

Yes I agree someone could get into IT with a cert and not be suited to IT. btw who have you noticed?

Originally Posted by Mathematix

As the title suggests, I've also noticed that people who are either about to graduate, or have actually graduated with a computing degree of some form still feel the need to take a string of certs. What is the reasoning behind this? Why do people thing that their degrees are lacking to the extent that certs are required to 'fill-in the gaps'?

I have actually learned new things doing the A+ which I didn't learn at uni, they may have been talked about but I may have been pissed or asleep. Just because you have a degree does not mean you learned anything.

These are genuine questions, so please don't take it as me having a dig. I know how the concensus here is to group together when feeling threatened. ;)[/quote]

[Arroryn]

Hi Mathematix,

Some interesting points, and no, I'm not going to dig, as I don't personally feel there's anything to dig at.

As someone without a degree, but aspiring to one day have one, and with certifications, here's how I see it at the moment.

IT as an industry fluctuates as to the way it treats levels of education. Certifications are constantly upgrading to meet the changing standards of the industry we are in. This is one fundamental difference in IT as opposed to some places - the certifications we obtain in IT need to be re-sat or 'upgraded' as the technologies advance at a rapid pace. Someone who is an MCSE for Windows NT obviously worked hard to get their certification - but that doesn't prove that they have the established knowledge in a Server 2003 environment.

As for my comment on the way education is treated in IT, there do seem to be fluctuations of 'buzz' certifications. These are often devalued through certain people abusing braindumps and 'cheating' their way into a job. This image does no one working in IT any favours. I (personally) think the MCSE is a certification at the centre of braindumping devaluation at the moment.

A degree is a different level and method of education to certification, and I don't really think they should be treated in the same context.

A degree teaches the student to be able to think and research independently. IT degrees seem highly theory based. They should allow the student to enter into a fulfilling career without having to certify as anything else. What I think the main obstruction is, is what the students themselves want to achieve. For example, someone having done a degree in 'Computing' could potentially cover subjects as diverse as mathematics, Java, artificial intelligence and databases. Whilst this is a good wide-ranging level of education, if the student wants to develop a career in networking, it's not going to stand them in much good stead at all, hence pursuing a CCNA or suchlike after graduating.

I would expect students that have a degree to be able to self-study with more ease than most, because of the learning practises they have already gained at University.

But, enough of the rambling. I will try to answer your statements briefly, and in context.

1. Certs have no value outside of the IT industry.

This is true, but then most vocational certifications will have little or no value other than in the industry at which they are aimed. The same would be true for training as a dentist, as a florist, in travel and tourism or as an electrician or plumber.

2. Certs are perceived as a quick way to getting into the IT industry.

So are degrees - and they are perceived as a quick way into any industry, through the innumerate graduate programs leaking around the place. At CF, we will always try to give rounded advice that experience is a must, but something has to give in the experience/certifications debate. If you have no experience in IT, a cert may provide you with an edge over another candidate, but you will still have to prove your mettle in the working environment to keep your job and your career on track.

3. Certs do not provide a well-rounded education for IT or any other aspect of computing.

Only experience can provide a well-rounded education in IT. Certifications help focus your knowledge on specific aspects and areas. The vast range of disciplines you can enter in IT makes it difficult for your education to be completely 'rounded'. Certifications help you to focus where you want your expertise to lie, and help show prospective employers what you could be capable of.

4. A string of IT certs could actually cost more than going for a traditional degree.

That would depend how many certs, in all honesty. The average cost of a degree (from this link) was £33,512 last year. I could get a lot of certifications for this price.

5. With degrees you have a recognised qualification for life, whereas certs need 'upgrading'.

See my point above. The beauty for me of working in IT is that it's an industry that's always advancing. A certification that doesn't change with the times is near useless in such an environment, and the people working within it should be able to show that they are developing along with the technologies they use.

6. Test centers charge thousands for what could be got for a couple-hundred quid!

Not true. Training providers charge thousands, and it's always up to the individual as to whether they study with a provider or not.

7. Certs allow people not suited to any form of work in the IT industry to get work. I particularly take note of this thread regarding kobem's suitability for the industry. Although I agree, there are many others here that I would put in Kobem's group.

Certs are not a Golden Ticket into Willy Wonka's IT Wonderland. First, people have to pass the certification. To use your example, I believe Kobem is actually studying for a degree, so that works kind of against your argument.

Nevertheless - yes, people will get certs in the belief they will get a way into IT. If they do somehow blag their way into a job, they will have to prove themselves every day. If they don't have what it takes to work in IT, then they will be sacked, and they will find it difficult to get work. Just because someone has a certification, it doesn't make them unsackable; it doesn't make someone instantly hireable.

Hope this helps towards your debate. Thanks for an interesting topic of discussion

[Mathematix]

Originally Posted by greenbrucelee

Also true, I learned not to take anything as a sure fire way into IT, I was told I would get a decent job in IT after I left uni but found out this was un-true.

So if University didn't give what was promised, what makes you think certs would? Even though they are geared towards your ultimate goal, there is nothing there to offer any more of a promise.

Reading over the forums I see many with certs still asking the same questions as a regular graduate.

Originally Posted by greenbrucelee

I think certs do provide a well rounded education for IT, I can only speak of the A+ but it is geared towards what you need to know as an entry level tech and that is what the A+ is for.

I beg to differ on that score. I've seen certified individuals struggle with problems that should not be an issue for them. Some of the problems themselves regarding both hardware and software issue I have resolved through trial and error without any major disasters - I simply am not sold on certs purely on this issue.

Originally Posted by greenbrucelee

Yes a cert could cost £1500 or more but a traditional degree usually means living away from your area and living in a crappy flat which costs a lot, most students end up with 10k or more debts so I think certs even if you have A+, N+, MCDST, MCSA, MCSE wouldn't cost you anywhere near the uni cost.

Not true. In my university days I live in halls, student flats and privately rented accommodation which were all of a very good to reasonable standard - and I wasn't the world's richest student!

I've had a look at the material that is covered for the A+ certification as an example. For my degree we barely spent a semester on that material and covered it all. doing a quick mental calculation on that it costed me personally roughly £400 and I got a bonus of learning why architectures are that way and their history. I think i came off with the better deal!

Originally Posted by greenbrucelee

Not all certs need upgrading.

Fair point. But given that technonogy advances at such a rate, if someone has a four year-old cert and have not been in IT all that time, what do they do? A good degree is with you for good.

Originally Posted by greenbrucelee

Thats why I recommend self study.

Awesome!

Originally Posted by greenbrucelee

Yes I agree someone could get into IT with a cert and not be suited to IT. btw who have you noticed?

I won't mention names. All I can say is that if more had your passion an willingness to learn they have a genuine chance, IMO! ;)

Originally Posted by greenbrucelee

I have actually learned new things doing the A+ which I didn't learn at uni, they may have been talked about but I may have been pissed or asleep. Just because you have a degree does not mean you learned anything.

If you didn't pay attention you can't blame degrees for that. Also, degrees don't teach you everything, nor do they promise to! what degrees do is seperate the 'men from the boys' in terms of those who have the scope to grasp concepts quickly from those who don't for their chosen profession. Maybe it's not the most reliable system, but it is generally very accurate.

[Rob1234]

If you have an IT degree, why take certs? - Short answer you can never learn enough!

I have a degree which taught me a lot but I have to agree with what Arroyn says a degree course can cover a wide area of subjects which mine did but but like she says if you go in to networking or security learning a lot of what I learnt will not be needed but Security+ would be a good cert to take.

[Phoenix]

[quote=Mathematix;193061]Hi all

I've been floating around these forums for quite a while trying to get my head around why people take certs, their value both inside and outside of IT and their value next to traditional education. I have no interest in doing them, nor do I need them as I'm already working in an industry that I was aiming for in the job that I wanted, but I do have several actual friends with them who tell me they are lacking. I know that loads of people are going to bite me for this, but here are my findings anyway:

1. Certs have no value outside of the IT industry

.
Not 100% accurate, it really depends on the cert and its depth, likewise it's only the out of date old boy attitude that says someone with a degree in botany can ever hope to compare to an IT vet just because they have 'a degree', something that is highly likely to change in the coming 25 years as we go through one of the biggest generational upheavals since the IT industry really got going

2. Certs are perceived as a quick way to getting into the IT industry.

By clueless HR staff maybe, anyone who has ever done a high level cert will tell you otherwise, they are not quick, they are not easy, the entry level ones are much easier and yes are a quick way in to the industry, i'm not sure if this point your trying to make is a negative one or a positive one? anything that can get someone working in a field they enjoy and being productive is a good thing in my eyes

3. Certs do not provide a well-rounded education for IT or any other aspect of computing.

Again, not true, depends very much on the certs themselves, and any IT vet worth their salt has a balanced understanding and diversified cert portfolio if they want to have the maximum options available to them

4. A string of IT certs could actually cost more than going for a traditional degree.

its unlikely, perhaps a really BIG string, or perhaps all done at a training provider, but the options are pretty flexible on how you attain certs, unlike degrees

5. With degrees you have a recognised qualification for life, whereas certs need 'upgrading'.

Again, not true, anything below a masters is a pretty moot point, and I for one have often skipped over CVs that only have a bachelors degree listed after five years in the field, IT, unlike the health or legal field evolves VERY fast at the hands on level, not just the research level, and i expect my future staff to take that seriously, your no good to me if you have not taken your education seriously because you think a degree is a lifelong ticket to employment

6. Test centers charge thousands for what could be got for a couple-hundred quid!

Yes and universities charge thousands to have some dude tell me to read a few chapters out of a book every week.. how quaint

7. Certs allow people not suited to any form of work in the IT industry to get work. I particularly take note of this thread regarding kobem's suitability for the industry. Although I agree, there are many others here that I would put in Kobem's group.

I'm not sure what you are insinuating, Kobems English is not brilliant, and it seems to lead to people here thinking they can treat him like an idiot, to be honest whilst we may all give the usual snide 'go google it' answer, this forum might as well not exist if all we need is a holder page that says 'google it' Kobems posts on ipv6 lead me to believe that he is indeed quite knowledgeable in his field, and judging him in an English forum solely on our inability to understand him is a pretty strong testament to the way the world has gone the last 40 years, perhaps i'm just gifted but I can usually decipher his posts on first glance now, and I'm not convinced that a cert (if gained properly) gives anyone an edge they do not deserve
if you want to cheat.. well that truth stands be it a cert or a degree doesn't it?

As the title suggests, I've also noticed that people who are either about to graduate, or have actually graduated with a computing degree of some form still feel the need to take a string of certs. What is the reasoning behind this? Why do people thing that their degrees are lacking to the extent that certs are required to 'fill-in the gaps'?

Its possible they realize the long term benefits of continuing there education with vocational certifications, that will benefit them and their current and future employers, also the IT degree itself means very little in the UK, unless its a programming degree for a programming job

[Arroryn]

Sorry to answer questions with a question Mathematix, but I am curious.

You have a degree, and have a job in IT, which you are happy in (I am making this assumption off your profile, and the fact that you have never compained about it!)

How did your experience go, with finding your job without any other certifications? Did you have a work-based placement which you moved in to? Did you tailor your career with that specific job in mind?

[greenbrucelee]

Originally Posted by Mathematix

I beg to differ on that score. I've seen certified individuals struggle with problems that should not be an issue for them. Some of the problems themselves regarding both hardware and software issue I have resolved through trial and error without any major disasters - I simply am not sold on certs purely on this issue.

I know people who have IT degrees and barley scrape through each day in their jobs

Originally Posted by Mathematix

Not true. In my university days I live in halls, student flats and privately rented accommodation which were all of a very good to reasonable standard - and I wasn't the world's richest student!

I lived in halls also and yes they were a reasonable standard but I thought they were too expensive for a student.

Originally Posted by Mathematix

I've had a look at the material that is covered for the A+ certification as an example. For my degree we barely spent a semester on that material and covered it all. doing a quick mental calculation on that it costed me personally roughly £400 and I got a bonus of learning why architectures are that way and their history. I think i came off with the better deal!

Well when I did Business computing at uni we did learn what they A+ was probably back then in a semester, the reason I am doing it was because I stopped looking for jobs so I could just concentrate on paying of my debts, but that will be finished end of March so I thought I better relearn what I am fuzzy on and relearn anything I have forgot.

Originally Posted by Mathematix

Fair point. But given that technonogy advances at such a rate, if someone has a four year-old cert and have not been in IT all that time, what do they do? A good degree is with you for good.

Degree material changes also.

Originally Posted by Mathematix

Awesome!

Originally Posted by Mathematix

I won't mention names. All I can say is that if more had your passion an willingness to learn they have a genuine chance, IMO! ;)

I think some people want to do IT because they believe its really good money, I just enjoy it.

Originally Posted by Mathematix

If you didn't pay attention you can't blame degrees for that. Also, degrees don't teach you everything, nor do they promise to! what degrees do is seperate the 'men from the boys' in terms of those who have the scope to grasp concepts quickly from those who don't for their chosen profession. Maybe it's not the most reliable system, but it is generally very accurate.

agreed.

[Mathematix]

Originally Posted by Arroryn

Hi Mathematix,

Some interesting points, and no, I'm not going to dig, as I don't personally feel there's anything to dig at.

*phew*

Originally Posted by Arroryn

As someone without a degree, but aspiring to one day have one, and with certifications, here's how I see it at the moment.

Ahhh! But why do you still want the degree?

Originally Posted by Arroryn