70-441

[zardoz]

Hi

passed 70-431 a while back and have worked my way through the Sybex book for 70-441. Have 3 1/2 years experience in SQL Server 2000 as a developer (and use it now day to day) and have done exercises from the Sybex book in SQL Server 2005.

I am unsure how hard the exam is going to be - I think it is case study type questions mostly?

I tried some of these in the Sybex book and unlike the end of chapter questions I found them quite tough. To be honest I thought some of the questions were a bit subjective e.g "the client wants this, is the best way to achieve it A, B, C or D."
One answer will be obviously incorrect but two or more of the others may be possibles. I get the impression you just have to guess which is the "Microsoft approved" way!

Anyway if anyone has taken this exam I would be grateful for your thoughts on what to expect in general terms - not looking for specific answers!

[Theprof]

Hey, although I havent taking any SQL exams, I did notice that with microsoft exams its always like this, wheather its SQL or XP exam there are choices and you have to pick the microsoft way of doing something.

[g.vangemerden]

Not true... Although most exams look the same (i.e. have the same kind of questions), there are exceptions.

The 70-296 for example is split up in two sections. But both with multiple choice questions. And th 70-431 (MCTS:SQL 2005) was split in two, with section 1 multiple choice questions and section 2 were reallife simulations.

Personally, i encourage Microsoft to do more exams like 70-431. This way, people really have to know what they are doing to get certified...

[Crito]

Also keep in mind that MS will invalidate your MCTS: SQL Server 2005 next year when SQL Server 2008 is released. Makes it had to justify spending that kind of time, money and effort unless your employer actually requests the cert.

[BosonMichael]

Originally Posted by Crito

Also keep in mind that MS will invalidate your MCTS: SQL Server 2005 next year when SQL Server 2008 is released. Makes it had to justify spending that kind of time, money and effort unless your employer actually requests the cert.

That's not true. MCTS certifications will not expire until support for the product expires: link

Q. Will the new certifications expire?
A. The Technology Series certifications will expire when mainstream support for the version of the product ends. The Professional Series certifications will require recertification every three years from the date of issue.

Thus, the MCTS: SQL Server 2005 certification will be around for many years to come.

[Crito]

I hope you're right, but I doubt it. It depends on the definition of "mainstream". If they meant when support for the product is discontinued, as you imply, they would have said exactly that.

In any case, three years for the MCITP is a fixed number and way too short of one for me. I'd rather finish my MCSE on 2003. It's a much better value for my money.

[BosonMichael]

Originally Posted by Crito

I hope you're right, but I doubt it. It depends on the definition of "mainstream". If they meant when support for the product is discontinued, as you imply, they would have said exactly that.

In any case, three years for the MCITP is a fixed number and way too short of one for me. I'd rather finish my MCSE on 2003. It's a much better value for my money.

That is exactly what they meant... if you don't believe me, check out Trika's blog (she works for MSFT Learning).

According to the link on her page, end of mainstream support for SQL Server 2005 is scheduled for April 12, 2011... a little under 5 years from now, if they don't extend it.

As far as MCITP recerts go, it'll just take a single exam to recertify. Should be pretty simple if you've been using the technology for three years!

Get used to the three-year recertification... unless you don't ever plan to certify anymore. If that's the case, then good luck with what's left of the rest of your IT career! heehee!

[zimbo]

you know what i enjoy? a new product for SQL is coming out - yet the books for the current certs are only coming out now!!! Example:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/MCITP-Admini...637897&sr=11-1

[dmarsh26]

Get used to the three-year recertification... unless you don't ever plan to certify anymore. If that's the case, then good luck with what's left of the rest of your IT career! heehee!

Well personally I don't view reading a dull 800 page book on 80% the same stuff every 3 years appealing, or taking half a day off work and paying for the exam. Its a bit too groundhog day for me. The ROI for certs is much higher for new entrants, as such we'll prob end up with loads young people with certs up to their eyeballs and no common sense, while people with experience will probably continue to ignore certs and what good will that do anyone ?

I was planning to pursue more MSFT certs but I probably won't bother now, its simply not worth my time. If I do anything it will be getting a higher qualification which will cost alot more than certs but will probably also do a lot more for my career, and it won't expire.

you know what i enjoy? a new product for SQL is coming out - yet the books for the current certs are only coming out now!!! Example:

Exactly I made this very point in the MCSA/MCDST thread today, if microsoft can't keep pace with their own deadlines what chance has a busy programmer got ?
And thats just for one cert, what happens to the people that hold 10+ certs ? They will never stop reading books, paying for and taking exams, with largely the same content, whats the point in that ?

Theres some interesting reading here :-

http://www.certmag.com/articles/temp...479&zoneid=223

The highest salaries continue to be held by the roughly 3 percent of respondents between 55 and 64. Their average salaries range between $75,000 and $80,000 per year, which is about 5 percent higher than last year. The salaries of 40- to 54-year-olds also increased, with those between 40 and 44 making more than $70,000. Last year, this bench mark was reserved for professionals 55 and older.

So ironically a pro cert site may well have scored an own goal, the highest salaries are held on average by people 55-64, one article even mentions Cobol programmers doing well getting hired for .Net. I wonder how many of these 55-64 year olds have certs ? Strangely they don't give you a figure for that...

[BosonMichael]

Originally Posted by dmarsh26

Exactly I made this very point in the MCSA/MCDST thread today, if microsoft can't keep pace with their own deadlines what chance has a busy programmer got ?

For the record, the book Zimbo linked is not Microsoft's book... it's Sybex's. Microsoft's keeping pace with themselves just fine... their book was released in September of 2006.

A busy programmer, if he/she is good, doesn't have to study to pass a certification exam. That said, it's not as important for a programmer to certify as it is a network admin or a PC tech... a programmer can bring in code samples... a network admin can't bring in a... uh... network sample.

[dmarsh26]

For the record, the book Zimbo linked is not Microsoft's book... it's Sybex's. Microsoft's keeping pace with themselves just fine... their book was released in September of 2006.

I have MCPD books that were published February 28, 2007 for VisualStudio 2005, granted this is not terrible but I do think it indicates the 3 year window is uneccessarilly tight.

That said, it's not as important for a programmer to certify as it is a network admin or a PC tech... a programmer can bring in code samples... a network admin can't bring in a... uh... network sample.

Well I agree that certs are certainly not seen as that important among programmers, even mircosoft progammers have said this in their blogs.
Programmers generally can't bring in code samples as they are the intellectual property of the last company, they have to rely on interview, references and quals just like network admins.

I originally took my certs to try to avoid the endless testing in interviews, it hasn't happened, people don't trust the certs enough rightly or wrongly, now we have the worst of both worlds, two types of continuous testing.

A busy programmer, if he/she is good, doesn't have to study to pass a certification exam.

Well thats the point, the way the exams are put together you could indeed be a highly competent programmer and still fail without preparation. You won't necessarilly use all the parts of say the .Net framework in your day to day job. What if you code in multiple languages, OS's and frameworks ? Does the fact you need to look up a certain API make you a bad programmer ? In real life I'd rather a programmer looked it up than risk calling the wrong function. What about the 'dodgy' questions, that try to be like real life but in fact are just ambiguous in reality ? You don't have to write a single line of code, do any actual design or debugging, to pass the MCPD exams, this is in contrast to a formal qualification or the Sun certs that do not expire.

I totally agree the exams should be of the sort that a professional can walk in and pass without study, I don't think they are, the exam cram, measureup etc should not be necessary, but in most cases I think they are.

[zimbo]

Originally Posted by dmarsh26

Well I agree that certs are certainly not seen as that important among programmers, even mircosoft progammers have said this in their blogs.
Programmers generally can't bring in code samples as they are the intellectual property of the last company, they have to rely on interview, references and quals just like network admins.

I originally took my certs to try to avoid the endless testing in interviews, it hasn't happened, people don't trust the certs enough rightly or wrongly, now we have the worst of both worlds, two types of continuous testing.



Well thats the point, the way the exams are put together you could indeed be a highly competent programmer and still fail without preparation. You won't necessarilly use all the parts of say the .Net framework in your day to day job. What if you code in multiple languages, OS's and frameworks ? Does the fact you need to look up a certain API make you a bad programmer ? In real life I'd rather a programmer looked it up than risk calling the wrong function. What about the 'dodgy' questions, that try to be like real life but in fact are just ambiguous in reality ?

I totally agree the exams should be of the sort that a professional can walk in and pass without study, I don't think they are, the exam cram, measureup etc should not be necessary, but in most cases I think they are.

and hence why we have people braindumping.. certain exams want you to assume you know the works!

[BosonMichael]

Originally Posted by dmarsh26

I have MCPD books that were published February 28, 2007 for VisualStudio 2005, granted this is not terrible but I do think it indicates the 3 year window is uneccessarilly tight.

It's no tighter a window than had the book been released as soon as VS2005 was released... it's 3 years from when you certify, not 3 years from when the exam is released... It's the same 3-year period, regardless. Doesn't matter if it's 2005 to 2008 or 2007 to 2010, does it?

Originally Posted by dmarsh26

I originally took my certs to try to avoid the endless testing in interviews, it hasn't happened, people don't trust the certs enough rightly or wrongly, now we have the worst of both worlds, two types of continuous testing.

Most network admins take certs because they're usually listed as a job requirement for some jobs.

Nobody's forcing you to get certified... if you don't wanna get them, don't get them. Rightly or wrongly, many employers use them to weed resumes into the trash can, so if you want to take that risk, that's your decision.

[zardoz]

Personally I think Microsoft is expecting too much of people to keep certified on each new product. Realistically many companies arent going to be using 2008 for ages anyway - we dont even have 2005 yet!

In the UK some employers place more value than others on certifications. Some view them as proving nothing except that you remembered facts long enough to pass an exam.
All employers value proven practical experience and a good technical interview a lot more. Having said that, the certs show you have made an effort to keep up with current best practice etc - that is my intention in doing the 2005 certs, plus they will be useful when we (eventually) upgrade.

I agree that the tests should be at a level where an experienced developer can do a little memory refreshing and walk in and take the exam.

In practice, you are often expected to know the mechanics of things like Service Broker which few companies use but which Microsoft want to promote.
One way of promoting it is to force cert test takers to learn about it in the hope they will suggest it as a solution to a problem in the future (fat chance in my case where Service Broker is concerned!)

Anyway, just my opinions and all that....

[Crito]

What Microsoft has done is devalue your experience and overvalue exposure to the latest technologies. That may be fine from a marketing point of view, but it really does nothing for employers. In fact, if you search the job boards you'll find hardly anyone asking for the new generation certs, even at this late date. I'm certainly not wasting any more of my time pursuing them.