What do you think about ID cards being introduced in the UK :?:

I'm not really sure myself.I'm not aware of all the details involved, but the principle of the idea has had me thinking.

What do you UK guys think, and also maybe people on the board who are from countries that need ID cards can tell us what it's like having them.

Having followed this in the news today, I'm more in one mind than the other :arrow:

The "Pro" ID brigade say we need them to protect against crime, unify services, gain credit, etc, and - Hey, its no worse than the credit card and passport you already have !

But, ex-squeeze me, I have neither a credit card nor a passport, and have never to date had a problem establishing my identity, gaining credit, or access public services (doctor, dentist, etc, etc ...)

The discussion goes on to say that "Well, it's only another card with details about you that already exist"

OK, so they already exist, so I don't need a card.

"It will help to prevent crime"
Can you imagine the new avenues of crime that open up if you lose your shiny new plastic card ?

Errrm, wasn't yesterday's big story "credit card fraud is costing £800 per minute" ????

Hey, we all get National Insurance numbers fom the age of 16 ( when the new ID card would become effective). It's not likely you're going to "lose" your NI number, is it ? (ie the number upon which most information about you is based)

But another plastic card in your wallet (something else I do not possess) ? Hmmm, there for the taking. No thank you, Mr Blunkett.

I agree. Identification is becoming the worlds hot topic these days. Rather than go down the road of introducing YET another form of identification, it occurs to me that people should use more intelligence in utilising the ones we already have.

Can you prove who you say you are? Well, until such time as such futuristic methods as body tagging are made compulsory, there's going to be an element of doubt.

They say that fraud is costing the finance industry millions - well isn't all the advanced so called 'security' checking at banks etc supposed to go someway to reduce that?

My bank ask me so many questions when I call them up (or go in to see them), I still haven't managed to convince them that I've moved house, let alone actually do any transactions. They're happy for me to do all that online, though! :bigcry

I saw David Blunketts statement in the house of commons earlier.
He said that the "security services" or something had advised him that this would help them with blah blah.

That made me think.

Quite a few MP's are opposing this on both sides of the house.MP's are obviosly more socially aware.The security services job is obviously to keep things secure, but I feel that MP's are more well versed in social issues.

The security services if given free reign would probably come up with more extreme solutions for security than ID cards.I don't blame them for that, it's their job, you wouldn't expect anything less.

I'm glad that politicians are saying "hold on a minute", because they're more aware of what matters to society as a whole.

Also, I think David Blunkett seems to make rash decisions, and is often swayed.

I just have this feeling that nothing will change, I just can't believe this "Everything will be much better after this" line.

So, no ID cards for me.

Thankyou

Thats's what that smell is - I knew it - a forthcoming election !

Do we really think they're going to risk all or nothing (in light of recent events) on a piece of plastic ???

Can't see this one going through, although there's always the chance... :thumbdwn

Er um

Because of the something I do I am required to carry an ID card 24/7.

I don't see any problems with it and have found it of great use from time to time in proving who I am e.g. when I was in my early 20's I was refused a drink in a pub a flash of the plastic proved I was over 18 (or was my boy'ish good looks) :oops:

I suspect there will allways be a number of diffrent numbers that the Govt will know you by as trying to merge all the systems would be impossible. :roll:

Well I think that there will always be people who are opposed to the scheme and people who are all for it, I believe that in some ways it is a good thing, it would mean that we all have a card that is easy to recognise and we would know exactly what information could be found on the card, Its alot small than a passport so it is going to be easier to carry around 24/7 and i am sure if i thought about it a little more I could come up with a few more good points.

However there are also cons to any system put into force, if this ID card is going to be an absolute form of Identification then it opens up a new area of exploytation regarding fraud, if you could get hold of a card then you can VERY easily assume someones Identity.

If you got hold of a card, it would presumably be useless unless you can change the photograph on it!! Still I guess that wouldn't be a hardship to some fraudsters.

I guess to prove absolutely, you would have to have 'security' questions that only you could answer (whatever they may be) in addition to the card.

The more I think about it the worse it gets....

I heard on the news they are talking about some form of Bio security - fingerprint or retanal scan.

As far as the invasion of privacy issues go I think there's a much bigger threat looming ahead in the form of RFID chips, once they start becoming common place the sci-fi films images of interactive advertising boards detecting who you are and aiming advertising right at you is only a step away. If somebody had a mind to collate the data they could know who you are, where you bought a particular item, when you bought it and which exact bank notes you paid for it with and if you paid with plastic hey so much the better they then know all your financial details too. All good fun :)

From what ive heard they will have bio-security on the cards - a retinal scan.... but then they are not exactly common and cheap so its not like your gona have to have it scanned just to buy a pint!

I know the "big brother" issue is always gona have a good argument... however if it stops the number of illegal imigrants ect ect it would be good.... only thing is I dont for one moment think the government has the balls to make it work like it should if it was introduced. At most it will allow the authorities to easily identify illegal imigrants - to allow them to get leagal aid and get there own cards :(

On the issue of having to carry it around - from what I understand it will not be a requirement - ie no Nazi police stopping every person checking your papers. Just now we all have a NHS card with our doctors details ect on it - they tell us "if you dont bring this card you can be refused NHS treatment" but how many times have you been asked for it? exactly... thats how I feel the card will be used... infrequent checking when required. Like a drivers licence - you might have 7 days to produce it if required.

I personaly would carry one - but only if they give it to me, the hell I am paying for it :!: :!: :!:

How is this different from carrying a driver's license. If I'm stopped on the street by a police officer and he/she asks me for my ID, I would pull out my driver's license. What's the big deal?

Trip

In the UK a police officer can only ask a driver to show him/her a licence then we have 7 days to produce it at a police station of our choice so nobody ever carries them :!:

:?: In the UK a police officer can only ask a driver to show him/her a licence then we have 7 days to produce it at a police station of our choice so nobody ever carries them That's amazing. You mean you can drive without carrying a license and proof of auto insurance? How would the officer know the person they stopped was a licensed driver? People lie, you know. What if they were looking for a suspect in the area and you fit the description? Producing ID could show the officer that you're not the wanted person. When you write a check for groceries at the store, how do they check your ID...that is, that you are the person authorized to write checks from that account? Amazing! :!:

When you write a check for groceries at the store, how do they check your ID...that is, that you are the person authorized to write checks from that account? Amazing!

The quick answer is.......they don't, well to be trueful, the person writting the cheque SHOULD have what we call a cheque gaurantee card, these come with Gaurantee amount, either £50, £100, £150 or £200. they dont have a photo or anything on them, they just have your signature on the back, if the signature matches the signature on the cheque then there is not a problem.

What if they were looking for a suspect in the area and you fit the description? Producing ID could show the officer that you're not the wanted person.
WHAT :!: :!: :!:
:soz Trip, but what a point.Of course, what your saying is right, but it's not like there's escaped prisoners all over the place.
Sure there's terrorists, but compared to an ENTIRE :!: population, there's a tiny amount of them.

A driving license proves that you own the car and proves that you are allowed to drive it.

I don't own a car and I haven't learned to drive.However, I have learned to walk down the street using my legs.

The big deal is that I'm not a car, I'm a person, a human being, and we shouldn't jsut be treated like objects that can be checked for validity whenever it pleases some people, which is what will happen when we have to carry these cards.

A persons ID can be found quite easily if really needed.ID cards are very useful in your example of an escaped suspect in the area, but that is far too rare an occurence for me to take as a reason for having to explain who you are at any turn.

I guess the US isn't as free a country as I imagined. We have check guarentee cards here, too, and credit cards and debit cards and social security cards and a whole bunch of other cards. People who need ID but don't want or can't get a driver's license, can still get state ID from the Dept of Motor Vehicles (DMV). You pretty much can't do much if you can't prove you are who you say you are.

Sure, with a credit card and your signature, you can go out for dinner. When I buy gas and write a check, I usually don't have to produce ID (here in Idaho...I would if I still lived in California). When I applied with Manpower to get temp work, I had to produce my driver's license and social security card to prove I have the right to work here (and an not an "illegal alien").

I've had to possess and occasionally produce ID since I was 16 years old so it's no big deal. BTW, a driver's license just says you have the right to drive. You car registration proves you own the thing and have paid your fees to the state for that year. Then you have to produce car insurance or you can be arrested.

When I was 19 years old, I was driving through a neighborhood in Las Vegas (I used to live there). I was pulled over by a cop. Nice guy. There's been a residential burglary in the area and were looking for the suspect. I had to wait while he checked with the helecopter in the area who was also searching. After about 15 minutes, I was released. As a matter of routine, he took my driver's license and did a radio check to see if I had any wants or warrants under my name (I didn't). I've only been stopped like that one other time, but the police have the right to do so here. In the whole post 9-11 era, I imagine it's even tougher. I haven't had the opportunity to fly since then so I don't have any airport security check experience. I imagine they'd go through my carry on bag with a fine tooth comb.

We have check guarentee cards here, too, and credit cards and debit cards and social security cards and a whole bunch of other cards.
To me, that sums the whole thing up, whatever country you're in. We all have multiple forms of ID already, so why one more ?

The "illegal immigrant" argument is valid too, but (and I say this having detailed involvement for a while with a local Immigration Detention Centre) there are already methods in place of proving/refusing asylum status (eg my National Insurance number reference previously). In this scenario, it is ridiculous to say the entire population should carry cards in order to catch the fraction of a percent involved in asylum evasion.

I also heard from one news source (sorry, can't remember which) that the Retinal Scan idea would be far to complicated to implement on such a large scale.

OK, I concede there are several good arguments out there in favour of the ID card, but nowhere near enough to convince me (and I believe, many MPs) that this one should go the distance.

[quote]

The big deal is that I'm not a car, I'm a person, a human being, and we shouldn't jsut be treated like objects that can be checked for validity whenever it pleases some people, which is what will happen when we have to carry these cards.


My thoughts exactlt Flex. System may have a lot of good points but can't help think this will all go pear-shaped and I know I would spend a fortune on replacement cards as I would keep misplacing it!

In the whole post 9-11 era, I imagine it's even tougher. I haven't had the opportunity to fly since then so I don't have any airport security check experience. I imagine they'd go through my carry on bag with a fine tooth comb.


If you fly internally over in the UK you need Proof of ID to check in and get through the Airport Security to the departure lounge. They prefer a passport - but do accept photo driving licences from what I hear.... not sure what else they would accept... if your military or police your respected IDs I think are ok, but thats about it.


If you have no passport and no drivers licence - what else do you have to prove who you are? to get a passport you need to prduce birth certificate and have a responcible profesional sign that they know you. Duno what you would need for drivers licence - I used my passport :)

If you have no passport and no drivers licence - what else do you have to prove who you are? to get a passport you need to prduce birth certificate and have a responcible profesional sign that they know you. Duno what you would need for drivers licence - I used my passport

You (we all) have our name, address( apart from the homeless, but separate argument), National Insurance number, Credit rating, CHI Number (hands up who knew about that one ?), and whatever other files/data there are stored about us.

These have all existed since long before any proposition of a unified one-card-fits all solution, and will exist long after the idea passes into obscurity (I hope).

Darn it, all of us in here can even be nailed by an IP address, so I reckon I've made my point. I'm not saying it's right, it's still just my opinion.

But it's mine.

Now that's interesting. I don't have a passport. I haven't been abroad since 1985. My wife and daughter travelled to Israel a few years back so they have theirs. My daughter is having hers updated in the hopes that she can go to Japan as an exchange student (seems not likely since she's Jewish and the Japanese arm of AFS seems to have a thing for not catering to students with out of the ordinary diets).

When you write a check for groceries at the store, how do they check your ID...that is, that you are the person authorized to write checks from that account? Amazing!

The quick answer is.......they don't, well to be trueful, the person writting the cheque SHOULD have what we call a cheque gaurantee card, these come with Gaurantee amount, either £50, £100, £150 or £200. they dont have a photo or anything on them, they just have your signature on the back, if the signature matches the signature on the cheque then there is not a problem.

When the government consulted on this issue in the UK they called it an entitlement card, not an identity card.
The UK's problem is quite simple; in a mobile world where people can travel vast distances quite cheaply, and there is no standard form of identification, it can be very hard for nations that do not have one set form of ID for each citizen to check who is who.
If I want to claim benefits I have to quote my NI number; I don't even have to prove who I am as the law currently stands, and there is no standard Id specified to prove I am entitle dot benefits. To register as a patient at my doctors I have to produce a medical card, a piece of carddboard that could be forged by a child with a John Bull printing kit (do they still make those???) To open a new bank accout I have to produce proof of who I am and where I live from a Bank of England approved list of ID's... And so it goes on and on.

There is no proposal that a police officer can require you to produce the new card, if and when it is introduced. it doesn't really make much sense to enable them to require ID, since whether or not you've got ID is not pertinent to whether or not you are committing a crime.

Entitlement / ID cards are ideal for a world where it's hard to tell whether someone is a british citizen entitled to hospital treatment, or a health tourist trying to avoid paying the going rate in America for treatment. Add in the issues of benefits and you start to see why some form of universal ID card is long overdue...

Hey Grumpster - welcome to CertForums - make sure your next post is in the New Members forum so that you can introduce yourself and we can all welcome you formally (well, welcome you in our style anyhow!)

:angel

Welcome, GrumpyOldMan (GOM?)

Echo Rosy - if you feel like it, stick a post Here (http://www.certforums.co.uk/forum/viewforum.php?f=8)

I still remain of the opinion that this is not being proposed for the goodness of all Britons travelling the Brave New World, which we have been able to for ,err, centuries.

I believe it's a cynical pre-election ploy that won't happen, but I've banged on enough about this, that I feel I should shut up now !

Welcome, GrumpyOldMan (GOM?)

Echo Rosy - if you feel like it, stick a post Here (http://www.certforums.co.uk/forum/viewforum.php?f=8)

I still remain of the opinion that this is not being proposed for the goodness of all Britons travelling the Brave New World, which we have been able to for ,err, centuries.

I believe it's a cynical pre-election ploy that won't happen, but I've banged on enough about this, that I feel I should shut up now !

Here's the problem; if it were a cynical pre-election ploy then why is the cabinet so bitterly divided over it? Why use something so potentially divisive as a vote winner?
I've heard all the arguments about how everyone has paper already. It ain't true. For my sins I used to work in a bank in one of England's more deprived areas; I hope our American friends will bear with me.
So you're a young bloke in North east england. You live with your girlfriend, but you aren't on the voters list because you;re scared that if you do your girlfriend will lose her 25% council tax discount. besides, you';ve moved twice this year and no0-nme has explained to you how rolling voter registration works.
So you can't use your address tp prove who you are for a bank account, because officially you don't have an address. you can;t afford £400 for driving tests to get a ffull driving licence, and nobody but nobody accepts provisional licenses as ID unless they're in the losing money business.
you don;t have a passport either; you';re from that group who know what foreign travel is, but the furthest you;re likely to go anytime soon is the ferry to South Shields.
So you have no ID, and can't get a bank account, or even a savings account. so you can;t even get a Mac job, becaus even Mac job employers are paying people via BACS.
Want to tell that young man that an ID card with free applications for the poor won't be a boon?

As for NI numbers, I hope someone can explain to me how it helped combat benefit fraud that under previous governments the DSS had no option, where they couldn't positively identify a new claimant, but to give them a new NI number and a new record? Only one testable ID, backe dup by biometrics and a robust real time computer system (loads of lovely new network PCs for us to support) will help eliminate those kinds of problems...

Most of us on here are respectable Joes and Joannas I guess, to whom ID cards will be a nuisance, that's why we'll experience them being phased in over time as we renew our passports and driving licenses; at the margins they will be a boon to some people and a deterrent to others. Seems like a good deal to me...

Here's the problem; if it were a cynical pre-election ploy then why is the cabinet so bitterly divided over it?

Asylum seekers
:soz but I thought it was pretty obvious myself :!:

You live with your girlfriend, but you aren't on the voters list because you;re scared that if you do your girlfriend will lose her 25% council tax discount. besides, you';ve moved twice this year and no0-nme has explained to you how rolling voter registration works.
I'm sorry our first meetings have been in disagreement with each other, Grumpy Old Man - not something that is normal around here, honest !

But what you're saying above seems to be, if not in sympathy with those who try to "screw the system", then at least stating a case that ignorance is an excuse to be granted hand-outs from the system.

If you don't understand the Voter's Roll, are illiterate, innumerate, of no fixed abode for reasons beyond your control, or whatever other social disadvantage may have befallen you, you are fully entitled to assistance to help you overcome these set-backs in your circumstances, in order to ensure you may still participate in a free and democratic society.

To use these circumstances to justify a "one-fix for everyone" ID card is, to me, unacceptable. I fully understand that such a card would indeed simplify many day to day social interactions, but to argue that is should become mandatory ? I'm sorry, I will not agee to that.

A point was made much earlier by Sandy that some people are obliged by the nature of what they do to carry an ID card 24/7 - OK fine, but thats the employment your in.

If I cannot sail on a loch, or climb a hill without carrying ID, then sorry - society is dead.

If I cannot sail on a loch, or climb a hill without carrying ID, then sorry - society is dead.
:iagree
Remarkably well put :!:

This is soooo off topic, but then again, not. I've been reading this thread with interest. Being a U.S. citizen, the whole argument seems sort of odd. While I'm not obligated to carry ID while sailing a "loch" or climbing a mountain, because most folks here drive a car, we pretty much carry our I.D during our waking hours.

I was recalling a science fiction story I once read called My Name is Legion (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0571112900/qid=1069194274/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_0_1/202-9036426-1114200) by Roger Zelazny. The hero in this story was originally a programmer for a project that was creating a system of uniform IDs for every man, woman, and child on Earth. He was in a position of entering the last few identities, including his own. At the last minute, he decided to not enter himself and became his world's only "non-person", to quote George Orwell.In this position, he could pretend to be anyone, do anything, and not be tracked.

We'll come to the day when society's desire to at least have the illusion of safety will demand that at least everyone in the post-industrial world will carry I.D. To be an "identityless" person will equal being potentially dangerous.